tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post3528450777189851519..comments2010-05-30T11:11:51.306-04:00Comments on Books Like Dust...: SAGA Fantasy: The WizardDamonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16387464729775242559noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-91419681121630689822010-05-03T19:18:52.943-04:002010-05-03T19:18:52.943-04:00IMHO you can't build out the other classes unt...IMHO you can't build out the other classes until you settle the magic question, because magic is ultimately the bellweather for damage. Obviously opinions may vary, but I think you really need to know how a 10th or 15th or 20th level fighter is going to measure up against a wizard/cleric/druid in terms of damage.NukeHavochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665710360433600204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-28436335497814120762010-05-02T16:57:28.235-04:002010-05-02T16:57:28.235-04:00Perhaps it would be useful to see how the other cl...Perhaps it would be useful to see how the other classes convert before deciding...Damonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16387464729775242559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-43095403030195772802010-05-02T15:45:35.355-04:002010-05-02T15:45:35.355-04:00My original opinion remains: importing the Vancian...My original opinion remains: importing the Vancian magic system into Saga unchanged makes wizards, clerics and druids FAR more powerful than their non-magical counterparts.<br /><br />I don't think it's enough to simply throw the two systems at one another and see what sticks. IMHO, you need to adapt the magic system to Saga in a way that makes sense and is balanced against the other base classes.NukeHavochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665710360433600204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-64133875477068809242010-04-25T16:46:54.414-04:002010-04-25T16:46:54.414-04:00I think that multiple damage dice for higher level...I think that multiple damage dice for higher level warriors is the way to go. <br /><br />It's the attack roll and all of the modifiers (which change for every iterative roll) which really slows things down. <br /><br />One attack roll, 3d8 instead of 2d8. Much simpler. Much faster.Evilgeniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09462248770955204906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-73464329213237537612010-04-25T13:39:14.482-04:002010-04-25T13:39:14.482-04:00To partially answer my own question re: martial cl...To partially answer my own question re: martial class damage, Star Wars handles this in part by doubling damage dice. <br /><br />Most weapons (like lightsabers and blasters) do 2d8 or 2d10 damage, and heavy weapons do even more. Throw in feats like Rapid Strike or Rapid Fire, and they're doing 3d8 or 3d10, which keeps them competitive with Force powers.<br /><br />So how do you deal with this in D&D? Is doubling weapon damage and having comparable feats sufficient?NukeHavochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665710360433600204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-76612812429796887992010-04-24T21:20:29.808-04:002010-04-24T21:20:29.808-04:00yes, I absolutely think it is disruptive to the ga...<i>yes, I absolutely think it is disruptive to the game process, or it slows it down. For every force power I use, I have to open the book to that particular page, make the roll, and then consult the chart. Every time. </i><br /><br />I don't see how that's any different from D&D 3.x; everyone did that anyway and it can easily be avoided by printing out your Force powers.NukeHavochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665710360433600204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-46169120459222830392010-04-24T21:19:15.530-04:002010-04-24T21:19:15.530-04:00I guess my ultimate point here is that if you crea...I guess my ultimate point here is that if you create a fantasy SAGA game, I don't think you can just bolt the existing D&D 3.x magic system on to it, or spellcasters will greatly outstrip the other classes.<br /><br />So mechanically, how do you balance the magic system against the loss of iterative attacks? (which is a huge deal for fighters/rangers/paladins and still a big deal for others that rely on a halfway decent base attack bonus?NukeHavochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665710360433600204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-55700999693106122272010-04-24T20:15:16.251-04:002010-04-24T20:15:16.251-04:00yes, I absolutely think it is disruptive to the ga...yes, I absolutely think it is disruptive to the game process, or it slows it down. For every force power I use, I have to open the book to that particular page, make the roll, and then consult the chart. Every time. <br /><br />I also dislike the idea that spells are tied to feats in the extreme. One of the great things about playing a mage is finding a spellbook and learning a few spells therein. Tying it to a feat means have to wait until next level (or even 2 levels, depending on where I am in the progression) to learn a spell. Why? Why do I need to wait until I level to learn a new spell? I should I have to? It's a lame IMHO as spending gold and time under 2e training up to the next level, and it is something that takes you "out of the game."<br /><br />I also disagree that Divine, Arcane and Psionics should be mechanically the same. Part of the point of playing a Psionicist is that it is NOT a spellcaster, and mechanically different. This is touching on something I felt was very dissatisfying about 4e.<br /><br />Damon.Damonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16387464729775242559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-69530847384335438972010-04-24T20:11:40.440-04:002010-04-24T20:11:40.440-04:00Ken, I'm also not sure where you're going ...<i>Ken, I'm also not sure where you're going with your train of thought. Taking damage caps off of spells is one thing to keep low level spells competative at higher levels is one thing, but I'm not so sure you should need to make a spellcraft roll to do it.</i><br /><br />Because I like the idea of a skillful magic system, that your skill with the Art (e.g. Spellcraft) at least in part determines how well you roll. That's probably my favorite part of the Force system in Saga; that skill *does* come into it. <br /><br />Honestly, I think there are two ways to approach a Saga: Fantasy conversion. Either you're taking the core Saga rules and adding in D&D elements (in which case you retain something like the Force system for spells, or a Vancian counterpart) or you're starting with D&D and adding in the Saga elements you like.<br /><br />IMHO opinion though, the second approach means that you have to make some pretty serious adjustments to the magic system to compensate for nerfing a fighter's damage-per-round potential by slashing their number of attacks per round at high level from 3 to 5 to 1 (unless they have the appropriate feats).<br /><br />Keep in mind though that this is all just off the top of my head. I'd love to whiteboard it all out some time. :)NukeHavochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665710360433600204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-6138350694880519642010-04-24T19:47:05.033-04:002010-04-24T19:47:05.033-04:00Also Damon, I don't think the our rolls for Us...Also Damon, I don't think the our rolls for Use the Force are disruptive to the game or really slow things down at the table, do you? And we've often got 3 or 4 Force wielders doing their thing.Evilgeniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09462248770955204906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-64274530234768677332010-04-24T19:45:13.447-04:002010-04-24T19:45:13.447-04:00I also think that a die roll to see how well you c...I also think that a die roll to see how well you cast would be a welcome relief to D&D. And then you wouldn't need Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Meteor Swarm. <br /><br />You could have one Spell. Still call it Fireball. Roll for the tier.<br /><br />IMO, Damon, the Vancian system is a relic. I've been waiting for it to go for a few decades now, though I don't like how it finally did get replaced. <br /><br />Also, I should state that while I'm talking about Arcane Magic here because your example is the Wizard, I think the same thing should apply to all Magic and Psionics. Same system, different spells.Evilgeniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09462248770955204906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-35330969464494475202010-04-24T19:39:45.138-04:002010-04-24T19:39:45.138-04:00Damon,
If you remove Metamagic Feats and Item Cr...Damon, <br /><br />If you remove Metamagic Feats and Item Creation feats to Talents, what else does a wizard spend his feats to do? Spell Penetration?Maybe. Spell Mastery? Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow?<br /><br />In Saga you get more feats to begin with AND your system removes the feats that most of us regularly took for wizards. So why not base spell access on Feats?<br /><br />If you make "Arcane Training" a Wizard class bonus feat you'd get it at every even wizard level. If you want to use it for something else, cool. If you just want more spells, cool. <br /><br />Figure a wizard would start with one starting feat for Arcane Training. You'd have your 1st level character feat and if you're human, your racial feat. So if you could use them all towards Arcane Training using Damon's example you could know 15 spells. Doesn't sound too limited, Damon.<br /><br />Hmm. Maybe you shouldn't be able to use your racial feat for Arcane Training. That would still be 10 spells if you have an 18 Int. <br /><br />And we could handle higher level spell effects by spell pre-reqs. Fly prereq: 3 or 4 Arcane Training feats. Meteor Swarm? 10 Arcane Training Feats.Evilgeniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09462248770955204906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-67202166992067033532010-04-24T18:52:35.644-04:002010-04-24T18:52:35.644-04:00Ken, I'm also not sure where you're going ...Ken, I'm also not sure where you're going with your train of thought. Taking damage caps off of spells is one thing to keep low level spells competative at higher levels is one thing, but I'm not so sure you should need to make a spellcraft roll to do it. Why not just allow the progression to continue? I.e. for magic missile, at 18th level you're going to get 6 missiles as it is (at 30pts of damage -- no miss -- if left as-is). But to say the character has to make a Spellcraft roll to get there? It's just another roll that IMHO I don't see as being necessary.<br /><br />Incidentially, if I were to revamp the spell system, I would use the system used by Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2e. But this exercise is to keep things simple for the conversion.<br /><br />Damon.Damonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16387464729775242559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-72935351524701049942010-04-24T18:39:40.076-04:002010-04-24T18:39:40.076-04:00I was actually considering using The Force as psio...I was actually considering using The Force as psionics actually.<br /><br />Damon.Damonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16387464729775242559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-61685379201745692992010-04-24T18:31:57.042-04:002010-04-24T18:31:57.042-04:00One other note -- IMHO I'd love to see the exi...One other note -- IMHO I'd love to see the existing Force system ported in as an alternative to the Sorcerer. :)NukeHavochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665710360433600204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-54173423925855258582010-04-24T18:31:57.041-04:002010-04-24T18:31:57.041-04:00Re: game speed: I think it depends on how things s...Re: game speed: I think it depends on how things shake out. <br /><br />IMHO part of what kills the pace of the game is the sheer number of spells people have to choose from. Going into combat? ok, let me spend 10-30 minutes (depending on level) picking my spells. Now repeat that for every Vancian spellcaster at the table.<br /><br />Having fewer spell options means having fewer "spell systems" to learn/memory means that things run faster at the table because you know what you're doing.<br /><br />So I'll throw this out there -- what does it mean for a system to be "Vancian"? Must it include a full "spell per day" progression spread over 1-20 character levels, with a complementary 1-9 spell level progression?<br /><br />Knowing what we know now, how could we redesign a Vancian system to still feel like D&D but streamline it enough to run faster at the table (and in this, I'm talking about ALL Vancian spell systems, including wizard, druid and cleric). <br /><br />Mechanically, I think one of the things that a Vancian spell system tries to do is not only allow spell casters flexibility but also manage the power of any given spell by only allowing higher level casters access to higher level abilities.<br /><br />So while allowing Spellcraft checks for lower level spells ensures those spells remain effective at higher levels, retaining "spell levels" allows you to corral certain arcane effects to certain tiers of play. This is something that Star Wars doesn't try to deal with because it's a problem for that setting. <br /><br />e.g. It doesn't "feel" right for 1st level characters to be able to cast fly so we restrict that to 3rd level. The same goes for powerful spells like passwall, wish and teleport -- these are spells that you don't want low level characters to have access to in your typical Star Wars game (granted, a flatter spell structure, based on skills, would allow you to replicate other kinds of fantasy stories, such as Conan or Wheel of Time; so your mileage may vary).NukeHavochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665710360433600204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-37869765323012458382010-04-24T17:57:56.883-04:002010-04-24T17:57:56.883-04:00Ken, what I was disagreeing with Bob about is not ...Ken, what I was disagreeing with Bob about is not deleting or nerfing spells, but a Wizard's access to those spells. Using Bob's model, a wizard with +4 bonus in Intelligence could have a maximum of 5 spells, and in order to get more, they have to keep burning feats to do so. A fighter FREX doesn't need to burn feats (usually) to get new weapons, but a wizard should? <br /><br />While the way the force powers are implemented in SWSE are mechanically OK, I don't think they really have the flavor of magic, or what D&D has done with magic for the last 30 years.<br /><br />One thing I do want to address is your comment of using DC checks to "unlock" higher power spells. If the main point here is to speed up play, adding a die check to see if you get your spell off (all other things being equal) will effectively slow down play IMHO.<br /><br />Damon.Damonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16387464729775242559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-19920369909958226122010-04-24T17:02:04.685-04:002010-04-24T17:02:04.685-04:00I don't know Damon -- I think you can have you...I don't know Damon -- I think you can have your cake and eat it too. I think you can reduce the overall number of spells, and concentrate on having a more effective (and more robust) set of core spells. <br /><br />For example, one of the things that D&D does is recreate lower-level spells as higher level versions so that wizards continue to get enough bang for their buck. e.g. Meteor swarm is basically a more effective version of fireball.<br /><br />But do you really need these duplicate spells? If you went the SAGA route, you could have a 1st level spell that *has* 9th level spell effects ... but its only unlockable with an exceptional (read: high level) skill check.<br /><br />So Burning Hands might work like:<br /><br />DC 10: 1d4 dmg<br />DC 15: 2d4 dmg<br />DC 20: 4d4 dmg<br />DC 25: 6d4 dmg<br />DC 30: 8d4 dmg<br /><br />This allows the spell to continue being effective at high levels. My thought is that you'd be able to get rid of some higher level spells when you know that you've got low level ones like Burning Hands that are capable of doing high level damage once you hit level 8, 10, etc.NukeHavochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665710360433600204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-58627076432882100182010-04-24T14:39:15.069-04:002010-04-24T14:39:15.069-04:00Bob,
I really have to disagree. I don't think...Bob,<br /><br />I really have to disagree. I don't think converting the magic system over to a "use the Force" system is really the best method. One of the things I liked about D&D -- and was a significant problem to my acceptance of using Savage Worlds as a fantasy engine -- is that there is a lack of how many spells you can actually have, and that the game engine is a hinderance to the aquisition of more spells. IOW using your method means that in order for my character to gain knowledge I would have to blow feats to do so. <br /><br />Also part of the point of this exercize is to simplify D&D but retain it's character. IMHO Vancian magic is a Sacred Cow.<br /><br />Damon.Damonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16387464729775242559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-76036223541046353882010-04-24T13:36:29.806-04:002010-04-24T13:36:29.806-04:00The entire magic system is due for a comprehensive...The entire magic system is due for a comprehensive overhaul. I think in a Saga-style system we could probably do away with the known/cast per level mechanic and implement a "Force Training" mechanic.<br /><br />I'm thinking something like this: Arcane Training: <br />Prereq - (feat you gain automatically as 1st level Wizard) + 10 Int<br />Benefit - Learn 1 + Int mod spells<br /><br />I'd also classify the feat so that you can only take it as a Class Bonus Feat for Wizards (or other arcane classes)or maybe as a character feat (1/3 levels).<br /><br />Regarding MetaMagic Feats, I do think they work best as Talents but I would drop the memorize as a higher level requirement and instead implement a DC based skill mechanic to them. Roll high on Spellcraft and get a bigger effect.Evilgeniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09462248770955204906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1486127511960062473.post-21763648557633302762010-04-24T10:15:20.378-04:002010-04-24T10:15:20.378-04:00I like the idea of moving the metamagic feats into...I like the idea of moving the metamagic feats into talents, but I'd beef them up a bit, perhaps removing some/all of the "this spell counts as a spell X higher." <br /><br />They are talents, and you don't get nearly as many of them as feats, so you could get away with bumping them up. From a game balance stand point, this would ultimately lead to wizards having fewer such options (which IMHO isn't a bad thing).<br /><br />I can see having the artificer feats remain as feats, but having the artificer talent tree provide a bonus to certain feats (e.g. "Exceptional Brewer" talent allows you to increase the effective spell level of a potion by +1, etc.) Alternatively, making them into talents as you've done allows you to limit the number of such "feats" in the game (another good thing when considering the unbalancing effects of spell casters vs. other classes at higher levels).<br /><br />Magic is a tough nut to crack. On the one hand, the shear flexibility of the current system is what (IMHO) makes D&D the game it is. 4E feels less D&D-like to me because the powers are ultimately so balanced against one another. <br /><br />I think I'd like a SAGA Magic system to reduce the total number of available spells (since so many of them are just minor variations on a theme) and perhaps reduce the total number of spells per days available at higher levels.<br /><br />I'd offset this with a "Learned Caster" talent tree that would be built around the idea of having more spells per day (and further modifying the spells you have) and a "Spontaneous Caster" talent tree aimed at giving Wizard's per-round spell abilities that allow them to feel a bit more arcane, and not have to constantly fall back that stupid light crossbow.<br /><br />I'd balance the magic system with talent trees for other classes that grant them access to exceptional abilities through Action Points (much as Saga already does, though more so).<br /><br />IIRC, e20 is looking at doing some of this with it's magic system, but we'll see how that shakes out.Ken Newquisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06183912052353033593noreply@blogger.com