Saturday, April 24, 2010

SAGA Fantasy: The Wizard

After our recent game, one of the players in my group stated that he "wished there was a fantasy version of SAGA." This got me thinking, and I don't think a conversion would be that hard to do. The big differences would be the Talent system (which is -- in my mind -- indistinguishable from Feats other than they are class specific, and tend to be more powerful), and integrating the fantasy elements like magic.

Creating talent trees was relatively easy. Just looking at the class-specific feats and converting the more powerful ones into talents. The magic system I suspect may take more work, since many of the spells would need to be integrated into the SAGA style framework, though I don't find this impossible.

This conversion also gives me the opportunity to "fix" some issues I have with SAGA (depending on how you look at it), like the skill system. This specifically is a return to the older 3e skill system, lifted whole cloth. I know there are those that prefer SAGA's (and by extension 4e's) method for selecting skills: I personally feel it gives me less control over my character. So that is one thing that gets "fixed."

So I present here the first such conversion: the Wizard.

Wizard



Wizards gain their power not through martial arms or physical combat, but through the manipulation and lore of magical energy. Thus, they tend to be intelligent and introspective, rather than physical and brash. Years of studying musty tomes or bent over their texts mean that they are not physically strong or robust, but their knowledge more than makes up for this.

Game Information

Wizards have the following game statistics

Abilities
A Wizard benefits most from intelligence, but wisdom and dexterity are also useful

Hit Points
Wizards begin play at 1st level with a number of hit points equal to 18 + their Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, the Wizard gains 1d4 hit points + their Constitution modifier.

Action Points
Wizards gain a number of Action Points equal to 5 + one-half their character level (rounded down) at 1st level and every time they gain a new level in this class. Any Action Points left over from the previous levels are lost.

Class Skills
At 1st level, the Wizard gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier) ×4. At each level thereafter, they gain 2 + Int modifier.The wizard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Class Features

Defense Bonuses
At 1st level, you gain +1 class bonus to your Reflex Defense, and a +2 class bonus to your Will Defense. 

Starting Feats
At 1st level, you gain the following bonus feats:
  • Arcane Spellcasting
  • Find Familiar
  • Weapon Proficiency (simple weapons)


Base Level Attack Bonus Class Features Spells: O lvl 1st lvl 2nd lvl 3rd lvl 4th lvl 5th lvl
1st +0 Defense Bonus, Starting Feats, Talent 3 1
2nd +1 Bonus Feat 42
3rd +1 Talent 421
4th +2 Bonus Feat 432
5th +2 Talent 4321
6th +3 Bonus Feat 4332
7th +3 Talent 44321
8th +4 Bonus Feat 44332
9th +4 Talent444321
10th +5 Bonus Feat 444332

Talents
At 1st level and every odd-numbered level thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc), you select a talent from any one of the following Talent Trees. You may choose a Talent from any tree you wish, but you must meet the prerequisites (if any) of the chosen Talent. No Talent may be selected more than once unless expressly indicated.

Artificer Talent Tree
Wizards that follow this talent tree are adept at creating magical items. You bend your will to infusing items with useful or powerful magical energies.

Scribe Scroll: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.

Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll.

Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.

Brew Potion: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion.

Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.

Craft Wondrous Item: You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.

You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one.

Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.

Craft Magic Arms and Armor: You can create any magic weapon, armor, or shield whose prerequisites you meet. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes one day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must spend 1/25 of its features’ total price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this total price.

The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.

You can also mend a broken magic weapon, suit of armor, or shield if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.

Prerequisite: Caster level 5th.

Craft Wand: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level × the spell level × 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.

Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost.

Prerequisite: Caster level 5th.

Craft Rod: You can create any rod whose prerequisites you meet. Crafting a rod takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To craft a rod, you must spend 1/25 of its base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of its base price.

Some rods incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the rod’s base price.

Prerequisite: Caster level 9th.

Craft Staff: You can create any staff whose prerequisites you meet.

Crafting a staff takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To craft a staff, you must spend 1/25 of its base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of its base price. A newly created staff has 50 charges.

Some staffs incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the staff’s base price.

Prerequisite: Caster level 12th.

Forge Ring: You can create any ring whose prerequisites you meet. Crafting a ring takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To craft a ring, you must spend 1/25 of its base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of its base price.

You can also mend a broken ring if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to forge that ring in the first place.

Some magic rings incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. You must pay such a cost to forge such a ring or to mend a broken one.

Prerequisite: Caster level 12th.

Metamagic Talent Tree
You are adept at manipulating the fabric of magic, and using this knowledge to enhance spell effects and tailor them to your needs.

Enlarge Spell:  You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell with a range of close now has a range of 50 ft. + 5 ft./level, while medium-range spells have a range of 200 ft. + 20 ft./level and long-range spells have a range of 800 ft. + 80 ft./level. An enlarged spell requires a Spellcraft DC20 + spell level to create the effect.

Spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as spells whose ranges are not close, medium, or long, do not have increased ranges.

Extend Spell: An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. An extended spell requires a Spellcraft DC20 + spell level to create the effect.

Heighten Spell: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Quicken Spell: Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell requires a Spellcraft DC25 + spell level to create the effect.. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Silent Spell: A silent spell can be cast with no verbal components. Spells without verbal components are not affected. A silent spell requires a Spellcraft DC20 + spell level to create the effect.

Still Spell: A stilled spell can be cast with no somatic components.

Spells without somatic components are not affected. A stilled spell requires a Spellcraft DC20 + spell level to create the effect.

Widen Spell: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%.A widened spell requires a Spellcraft DC20 + spell level to create the effect.

Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.

Revision History:
1.0 (4/24/10): Wizard class first post.
1.1 (5/2/10): Corrected some HTML code. Also changed meta-magic talents to make them more "skillful"

21 comments:

Ken Newquist said...

I like the idea of moving the metamagic feats into talents, but I'd beef them up a bit, perhaps removing some/all of the "this spell counts as a spell X higher."

They are talents, and you don't get nearly as many of them as feats, so you could get away with bumping them up. From a game balance stand point, this would ultimately lead to wizards having fewer such options (which IMHO isn't a bad thing).

I can see having the artificer feats remain as feats, but having the artificer talent tree provide a bonus to certain feats (e.g. "Exceptional Brewer" talent allows you to increase the effective spell level of a potion by +1, etc.) Alternatively, making them into talents as you've done allows you to limit the number of such "feats" in the game (another good thing when considering the unbalancing effects of spell casters vs. other classes at higher levels).

Magic is a tough nut to crack. On the one hand, the shear flexibility of the current system is what (IMHO) makes D&D the game it is. 4E feels less D&D-like to me because the powers are ultimately so balanced against one another.

I think I'd like a SAGA Magic system to reduce the total number of available spells (since so many of them are just minor variations on a theme) and perhaps reduce the total number of spells per days available at higher levels.

I'd offset this with a "Learned Caster" talent tree that would be built around the idea of having more spells per day (and further modifying the spells you have) and a "Spontaneous Caster" talent tree aimed at giving Wizard's per-round spell abilities that allow them to feel a bit more arcane, and not have to constantly fall back that stupid light crossbow.

I'd balance the magic system with talent trees for other classes that grant them access to exceptional abilities through Action Points (much as Saga already does, though more so).

IIRC, e20 is looking at doing some of this with it's magic system, but we'll see how that shakes out.

Evilgenius said...

The entire magic system is due for a comprehensive overhaul. I think in a Saga-style system we could probably do away with the known/cast per level mechanic and implement a "Force Training" mechanic.

I'm thinking something like this: Arcane Training:
Prereq - (feat you gain automatically as 1st level Wizard) + 10 Int
Benefit - Learn 1 + Int mod spells

I'd also classify the feat so that you can only take it as a Class Bonus Feat for Wizards (or other arcane classes)or maybe as a character feat (1/3 levels).

Regarding MetaMagic Feats, I do think they work best as Talents but I would drop the memorize as a higher level requirement and instead implement a DC based skill mechanic to them. Roll high on Spellcraft and get a bigger effect.

Damon said...

Bob,

I really have to disagree. I don't think converting the magic system over to a "use the Force" system is really the best method. One of the things I liked about D&D -- and was a significant problem to my acceptance of using Savage Worlds as a fantasy engine -- is that there is a lack of how many spells you can actually have, and that the game engine is a hinderance to the aquisition of more spells. IOW using your method means that in order for my character to gain knowledge I would have to blow feats to do so.

Also part of the point of this exercize is to simplify D&D but retain it's character. IMHO Vancian magic is a Sacred Cow.

Damon.

NukeHavoc said...

I don't know Damon -- I think you can have your cake and eat it too. I think you can reduce the overall number of spells, and concentrate on having a more effective (and more robust) set of core spells.

For example, one of the things that D&D does is recreate lower-level spells as higher level versions so that wizards continue to get enough bang for their buck. e.g. Meteor swarm is basically a more effective version of fireball.

But do you really need these duplicate spells? If you went the SAGA route, you could have a 1st level spell that *has* 9th level spell effects ... but its only unlockable with an exceptional (read: high level) skill check.

So Burning Hands might work like:

DC 10: 1d4 dmg
DC 15: 2d4 dmg
DC 20: 4d4 dmg
DC 25: 6d4 dmg
DC 30: 8d4 dmg

This allows the spell to continue being effective at high levels. My thought is that you'd be able to get rid of some higher level spells when you know that you've got low level ones like Burning Hands that are capable of doing high level damage once you hit level 8, 10, etc.

Damon said...

Ken, what I was disagreeing with Bob about is not deleting or nerfing spells, but a Wizard's access to those spells. Using Bob's model, a wizard with +4 bonus in Intelligence could have a maximum of 5 spells, and in order to get more, they have to keep burning feats to do so. A fighter FREX doesn't need to burn feats (usually) to get new weapons, but a wizard should?

While the way the force powers are implemented in SWSE are mechanically OK, I don't think they really have the flavor of magic, or what D&D has done with magic for the last 30 years.

One thing I do want to address is your comment of using DC checks to "unlock" higher power spells. If the main point here is to speed up play, adding a die check to see if you get your spell off (all other things being equal) will effectively slow down play IMHO.

Damon.

NukeHavoc said...

Re: game speed: I think it depends on how things shake out.

IMHO part of what kills the pace of the game is the sheer number of spells people have to choose from. Going into combat? ok, let me spend 10-30 minutes (depending on level) picking my spells. Now repeat that for every Vancian spellcaster at the table.

Having fewer spell options means having fewer "spell systems" to learn/memory means that things run faster at the table because you know what you're doing.

So I'll throw this out there -- what does it mean for a system to be "Vancian"? Must it include a full "spell per day" progression spread over 1-20 character levels, with a complementary 1-9 spell level progression?

Knowing what we know now, how could we redesign a Vancian system to still feel like D&D but streamline it enough to run faster at the table (and in this, I'm talking about ALL Vancian spell systems, including wizard, druid and cleric).

Mechanically, I think one of the things that a Vancian spell system tries to do is not only allow spell casters flexibility but also manage the power of any given spell by only allowing higher level casters access to higher level abilities.

So while allowing Spellcraft checks for lower level spells ensures those spells remain effective at higher levels, retaining "spell levels" allows you to corral certain arcane effects to certain tiers of play. This is something that Star Wars doesn't try to deal with because it's a problem for that setting.

e.g. It doesn't "feel" right for 1st level characters to be able to cast fly so we restrict that to 3rd level. The same goes for powerful spells like passwall, wish and teleport -- these are spells that you don't want low level characters to have access to in your typical Star Wars game (granted, a flatter spell structure, based on skills, would allow you to replicate other kinds of fantasy stories, such as Conan or Wheel of Time; so your mileage may vary).

NukeHavoc said...

One other note -- IMHO I'd love to see the existing Force system ported in as an alternative to the Sorcerer. :)

Damon said...

I was actually considering using The Force as psionics actually.

Damon.

Damon said...

Ken, I'm also not sure where you're going with your train of thought. Taking damage caps off of spells is one thing to keep low level spells competative at higher levels is one thing, but I'm not so sure you should need to make a spellcraft roll to do it. Why not just allow the progression to continue? I.e. for magic missile, at 18th level you're going to get 6 missiles as it is (at 30pts of damage -- no miss -- if left as-is). But to say the character has to make a Spellcraft roll to get there? It's just another roll that IMHO I don't see as being necessary.

Incidentially, if I were to revamp the spell system, I would use the system used by Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2e. But this exercise is to keep things simple for the conversion.

Damon.

Evilgenius said...

Damon,

If you remove Metamagic Feats and Item Creation feats to Talents, what else does a wizard spend his feats to do? Spell Penetration?Maybe. Spell Mastery? Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow?

In Saga you get more feats to begin with AND your system removes the feats that most of us regularly took for wizards. So why not base spell access on Feats?

If you make "Arcane Training" a Wizard class bonus feat you'd get it at every even wizard level. If you want to use it for something else, cool. If you just want more spells, cool.

Figure a wizard would start with one starting feat for Arcane Training. You'd have your 1st level character feat and if you're human, your racial feat. So if you could use them all towards Arcane Training using Damon's example you could know 15 spells. Doesn't sound too limited, Damon.

Hmm. Maybe you shouldn't be able to use your racial feat for Arcane Training. That would still be 10 spells if you have an 18 Int.

And we could handle higher level spell effects by spell pre-reqs. Fly prereq: 3 or 4 Arcane Training feats. Meteor Swarm? 10 Arcane Training Feats.

Evilgenius said...

I also think that a die roll to see how well you cast would be a welcome relief to D&D. And then you wouldn't need Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Meteor Swarm.

You could have one Spell. Still call it Fireball. Roll for the tier.

IMO, Damon, the Vancian system is a relic. I've been waiting for it to go for a few decades now, though I don't like how it finally did get replaced.

Also, I should state that while I'm talking about Arcane Magic here because your example is the Wizard, I think the same thing should apply to all Magic and Psionics. Same system, different spells.

Evilgenius said...

Also Damon, I don't think the our rolls for Use the Force are disruptive to the game or really slow things down at the table, do you? And we've often got 3 or 4 Force wielders doing their thing.

NukeHavoc said...

Ken, I'm also not sure where you're going with your train of thought. Taking damage caps off of spells is one thing to keep low level spells competative at higher levels is one thing, but I'm not so sure you should need to make a spellcraft roll to do it.

Because I like the idea of a skillful magic system, that your skill with the Art (e.g. Spellcraft) at least in part determines how well you roll. That's probably my favorite part of the Force system in Saga; that skill *does* come into it.

Honestly, I think there are two ways to approach a Saga: Fantasy conversion. Either you're taking the core Saga rules and adding in D&D elements (in which case you retain something like the Force system for spells, or a Vancian counterpart) or you're starting with D&D and adding in the Saga elements you like.

IMHO opinion though, the second approach means that you have to make some pretty serious adjustments to the magic system to compensate for nerfing a fighter's damage-per-round potential by slashing their number of attacks per round at high level from 3 to 5 to 1 (unless they have the appropriate feats).

Keep in mind though that this is all just off the top of my head. I'd love to whiteboard it all out some time. :)

Damon said...

yes, I absolutely think it is disruptive to the game process, or it slows it down. For every force power I use, I have to open the book to that particular page, make the roll, and then consult the chart. Every time.

I also dislike the idea that spells are tied to feats in the extreme. One of the great things about playing a mage is finding a spellbook and learning a few spells therein. Tying it to a feat means have to wait until next level (or even 2 levels, depending on where I am in the progression) to learn a spell. Why? Why do I need to wait until I level to learn a new spell? I should I have to? It's a lame IMHO as spending gold and time under 2e training up to the next level, and it is something that takes you "out of the game."

I also disagree that Divine, Arcane and Psionics should be mechanically the same. Part of the point of playing a Psionicist is that it is NOT a spellcaster, and mechanically different. This is touching on something I felt was very dissatisfying about 4e.

Damon.

NukeHavoc said...

I guess my ultimate point here is that if you create a fantasy SAGA game, I don't think you can just bolt the existing D&D 3.x magic system on to it, or spellcasters will greatly outstrip the other classes.

So mechanically, how do you balance the magic system against the loss of iterative attacks? (which is a huge deal for fighters/rangers/paladins and still a big deal for others that rely on a halfway decent base attack bonus?

NukeHavoc said...

yes, I absolutely think it is disruptive to the game process, or it slows it down. For every force power I use, I have to open the book to that particular page, make the roll, and then consult the chart. Every time.

I don't see how that's any different from D&D 3.x; everyone did that anyway and it can easily be avoided by printing out your Force powers.

NukeHavoc said...

To partially answer my own question re: martial class damage, Star Wars handles this in part by doubling damage dice.

Most weapons (like lightsabers and blasters) do 2d8 or 2d10 damage, and heavy weapons do even more. Throw in feats like Rapid Strike or Rapid Fire, and they're doing 3d8 or 3d10, which keeps them competitive with Force powers.

So how do you deal with this in D&D? Is doubling weapon damage and having comparable feats sufficient?

Evilgenius said...

I think that multiple damage dice for higher level warriors is the way to go.

It's the attack roll and all of the modifiers (which change for every iterative roll) which really slows things down.

One attack roll, 3d8 instead of 2d8. Much simpler. Much faster.

NukeHavoc said...

My original opinion remains: importing the Vancian magic system into Saga unchanged makes wizards, clerics and druids FAR more powerful than their non-magical counterparts.

I don't think it's enough to simply throw the two systems at one another and see what sticks. IMHO, you need to adapt the magic system to Saga in a way that makes sense and is balanced against the other base classes.

Damon said...

Perhaps it would be useful to see how the other classes convert before deciding...

NukeHavoc said...

IMHO you can't build out the other classes until you settle the magic question, because magic is ultimately the bellweather for damage. Obviously opinions may vary, but I think you really need to know how a 10th or 15th or 20th level fighter is going to measure up against a wizard/cleric/druid in terms of damage.